中华农历论坛知识讨论区历法知识 → 从预测日食的沙罗周期看农历的置闰问题


  共有45721人关注过本帖树形打印

主题:从预测日食的沙罗周期看农历的置闰问题

帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
浪-淘-沙
  21楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:版主 帖子:2068 积分:4263 威望:5 精华:4 注册:2008/11/13 21:03:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/17 12:52:00

以下是引用qtwo在2009-6-15 18:19:00的发言:
等深入探讨下去版主你就会知道它的妙用和明白许多东西。而且更主要的是用它来探讨农历的置闰问题。换句话说也就是很多东西都是有规律的,只是没发现或不知道而已。不明白的东西还多着呢。
以下是引用qtwo在2009-6-16 21:13:00的发言:
老实说这个问题我回答不出来,因为太复杂了超过我的能力,我真的不懂天文计算。

请问版主和其他坛友是日食的计算复杂还是农历闰年的计算复杂?如果把农历或闰月比做日食,那又会是怎样一种状况呢?

欢迎大家发表高见,谢谢!

楼主在本贴主题已经明示,沙罗周期是预测日食用的。

现在竟然说无法预测2010年的日食,那么你研究沙罗周期的“妙用”是用到哪个方面?

 

既然日食是用天文算法来计算的,那么请不要夸大沙罗周期的“妙用”。

 

沙罗周期只不过古人总结出来的日食规律,但它本身的缺陷是不能准确预测日食的发生地点。

用朔望月的平均长度与交点月的平均长度推算出来的沙罗周期,有时会出现误报(当误报发生时,往往是沙罗序列中止的时候,得采用一个新的序列)。

 

月亮周期并非每个月都等长的。

有时朔望月长达29天19小时,有时短至29天6小时。

沙罗周期18年10天到11天,无法保证每个周期月亮回到同一位置,几个周期之后,月亮会远离原先的位置。

假设某一次日食时,地球正好处于远日点附近(1月份),此时,朔望月周期相对较长,可能达到29天19小时。

一个周期后,地球偏离远日点约10度。9个周期后,地球已经偏离90度左右(4月份),朔望月周期也缩小到29天12小时左右了。

用等长的朔望月长度来推算沙罗周期,无法保证每次的预测都是正确的。要不然,也不会出现沙罗序列的中断了。

 


支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
春光
  22楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:版主 帖子:917 积分:7577 威望:10 精华:1 注册:2005/3/17 11:37:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/17 14:44:00

平法在与天象吻合永远不及定法.沙罗周期本身也是平法.


支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
chwc
  23楼 个性首页 | QQ | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:黑侠 帖子:603 积分:5315 威望:0 精华:4 注册:2008/4/21 19:06:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/17 15:04:00

下面引用春光的了言

平法在与天象吻合永远不及定法.沙罗周期本身也是平法
同感!就是用定法数据的有效数字最少也必须有11位以上。

支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
浪-淘-沙
  24楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:版主 帖子:2068 积分:4263 威望:5 精华:4 注册:2008/11/13 21:03:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/17 15:13:00

以下是引用春光在2009-6-17 14:44:00的发言:

平法在与天象吻合永远不及定法.沙罗周期本身也是平法.

春光版主的表述言简意赅。

 

*******************

喜欢用平法研究历法的朋友,都喜欢找一些特有的规律。

我不想引申讨论下去了。

 

我还是看重历法的实用性。

请Q会员恕我愚钝。我从沙罗周期中没看出什么实用价值。

因为我无法用它预测2010年的日食(其它年份也一样无法准确预测。这与楼主的本意正好相反了。)


支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
xjw01
  25楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:蝙蝠侠 帖子:866 积分:3804 威望:3 精华:20 注册:2008/3/20 22:14:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/17 16:37:00

准确的日月食计算需要精密的星历,在中国官方,一直是紫台在做这项工作。如果没有网络与计算机的普及,民间要取得精密星历几乎不太可能。

推算万年历不一定需要非常精密的星历,不过我在写寿星的时候,一开始就把星历精度控制在1角秒左右(后期版本精度又提高了3倍左右),所以计算出的气朔数据、日月食数据的精度还是很高的,与紫台或国际权威天文机构的计算结果几乎相同。

 

如果精密星历已经取得(这需要做不少工作),气朔计算比较简单的,日月食计算则比较麻烦,主要是因为日月食所需的计算项目很多,当然最重要的是图表显示问题。传统的图表示意方法使用日食界线图,不过寿星没有使用天文学的那套图示方法,而是现场计算,现场示意日月位置以及日食中心位置,不过,由于没有精密的地图,日食中心位置显示得不是很清楚。

 

 


支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
qtwo
  26楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:新手上路 帖子:24 积分:351 威望:0 精华:0 注册:2009/5/25 20:38:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/17 18:21:00

预测日食的沙罗周期农历的置闰问题,重点在后面。
Eclipses and the Saros

Fred Espenak

The periodicity and recurrence of eclipses is governed by the saros cycle, a period of approximately 6,585.3 days (18 years 11 days 8 hours). It was known to the Chaldeans as a period when lunar eclipses seem to repeat themselves, but the cycle is applicable to solar eclipses as well.

The saros arises from a natural harmony between three of the Moon's orbital periods:

Synodic Month (new moon to new moon)    29.53059 days  = 29d 12h 44m
Draconic Month (node to node)            27.21222 days  = 27d 05h 06m
Anomalistic Month (perigee to perigee)  27.55455 days  = 27d 13h 19m

One saros is equal to 223 synodic months. However, 242 draconic months and 239 anomalistic months are also equal to this same period (to within a couple hours)!

Any two eclipses separated by one saros cycle share very similar geometries. They occur at the same node with the Moon at nearly the same distance from Earth and at the same time of year. Because the saros period is not equal to a whole number of days, its biggest drawback is that subsequent eclipses are visible from different parts of the globe. The extra 1/3 day displacement means that Earth must rotate an additional ~8 hours or ~120o with each cycle. For solar eclipses, this results in the shifting of each successive eclipse path by ~120o westward. Thus, a saros series returns to about the same geographic region every 3 saroses (54 years and 34 days).

A saros series doesn't last indefinitely because the three lunar months are not perfectly commensurate with one another. In particular, the Moon's node shifts eastward by about 0.5o with each cycle. A typical saros series for a solar eclipse begins when new Moon occurs ~18° east of a node. If the first eclipse occurs at the Moon's descending node, the Moon's umbral shadow will pass ~3500 km below Earth and a partial eclipse will be visible from the south polar region. On the following return, the umbra will pass ~300 km closer to Earth and a partial eclipse of slightly larger magnitude will result. After ten or eleven saros cycles (about 200 years), the first central eclipse will occur near the south pole of Earth. Over the course of the next 950 years, a central eclipse occurs every 18.031 years (= saros) but will be displaced northward by an average of ~300 km. Halfway through this period, eclipses of long duration will occur near the equator. The last central eclipse of the series occurs near the north pole. The next approximately ten eclipses will be partial with successively smaller magnitudes. Finally, the saros series will end a dozen or more centuries after it began at the opposite pole. Due to the ellipticity of the orbits of the Earth and Moon, the exact duration and number of eclipses in a complete saros is not constant. A series may last 1226 to 1550 years and is comprised of 69 to 87 eclipses, of which about 40 to 60 are central (i.e., total or annular).

Solar eclipses that take place near the Moon's ascending node have odd saros numbers. Each succeeding eclipse in a series shifts progressively southward with respect to the center of the Earth. On the other hand, solar eclipses occurring near the Moon's descending node have even saros numbers. Each succeeding eclipse in a series shifts progressively northward with respect to the center of the Earth. The numbering system used for the saros series was introduced by the Dutch Astronomer G. van den Bergh in his book Periodicity and Variation of Solar (and Lunar) Eclipses (Tjeenk Willink, Haarlem, Netherlands, 1955). He assigned the number 1 to a pair of solar and lunar eclipse series that were in progress during the second millennium BC.

Understanding the numbering sequence of the saros is complicated by the fact that it does not depend on when a series either begins or ends. Instead, the numbering is determined by the order in which each series peaks. In this context, the peak of a series occurs when the umbral shadow axis passes closest to the center of the Earth. Since the duration of each series varies up to several hundred years and the numbering is keyed to the order in which each series peaks, this explains why the first eclipse of a series which peaks later can actually preceed the first eclipse of a series that peaks earlier. From the solar eclipse catalogs, the column labeled Gamma is the parameter that gives the minimum distance (in Earth radii) of the shadow axis from the center of Earth during each eclipse. Gamma is positive or negative depending on whether the shadow axis passes north or south of Earth's center. Looking at any of the saros catalogs (e.g., Saros 145) one can see how the value of gamma changes with each eclipse in a series. When gamma reaches its minimum (absolute) value, the series is then at its peak. In the case of Saros 145, the peak occurs with the eclipse of 2342 Mar 08 (gamma=0.008).

Since there are two to five solar eclipses every year, there are approximately forty different saros series in progress at any one time. For instance, during the later half of the twentieth century, there are 41 individual series and 26 of them are producing central eclipses. As old series terminate, new ones are beginning and take their places.

To illustrate, the ten central solar eclipses of 1891, 1909, 1927, 1945, 1963, 1981, 1999, 2017, 2035 and 2053 are all members of Saros 145. The series began with a partial eclipse near the north pole in 1639. The first central eclipse of the series was an annular eclipse in 1891. It was followed by another annular in 1909. The next event was the first total eclipse in 1927. The total solar eclipse of 1999 August 11 is number 21 of 77 eclipses in Saros 145, and it is the 5th of 41 total eclipses in the series. Each of the subsequent total eclipses shifts southwards. The last total eclipse occurs in 2648 near the south pole. The last eclipse of the series takes place in 3009. Table of Saros 145 gives details for every eclipse in the series.

The saros cycle for lunar eclipses operates analogously with the solar eclipse saros. For lunar eclipses, the parameter gamma is the Moon's minimum distance measured with respect to the axis of Earth's shadow (units of Earth radii). Note however, that the saros numbering is opposite to that for solar eclipses. Lunar eclipses occurring near the Moon's ascending node have even saros numbers. Each succeeding eclipse in a series shifts progressively southward with respect to the axis of Earth's shadow. Correspondingly, lunar eclipses occurring near the Moon's descending node have odd saros numbers. Each succeeding eclipse in a series shifts progressively northward with respect to the axis of Earth's shadow.

Another significant eclipse cycle is the inex, a period of 358 synodic months (29 years minus about 20 days, or nearly 10,752 days). The inex is useful because it marks the time interval between consecutively numbered saros series. To see a diagram illustrating the relationship between the saros and inex cycles over a period of 26,000 years, visit the Saros-Inex Panorama page.






[此贴子已经被作者于2009-6-19 21:00:35编辑过]


支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
positron
  27楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:新手上路 帖子:9 积分:280 威望:0 精华:0 注册:2009/6/7 14:46:00
回复:(qtwo)以下是引用浪-淘-沙在2009-6-17 15:13:...  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/19 14:00:00

还是喜欢打哑谜

支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
positron
  28楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:新手上路 帖子:9 积分:280 威望:0 精华:0 注册:2009/6/7 14:46:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/19 16:32:00

不过,我相信我已经知道这次的谜底。

支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
qtwo
  29楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:新手上路 帖子:24 积分:351 威望:0 精华:0 注册:2009/5/25 20:38:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/19 18:41:00

如果是这样最好,“从”字部分由我来,“看”字部分由你来,如何?

支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
帅哥哟,离线,有人找我吗?
浪-淘-沙
  30楼 个性首页 | 信息 | 搜索 | 邮箱 | 主页 | UC


加好友 发短信
等级:版主 帖子:2068 积分:4263 威望:5 精华:4 注册:2008/11/13 21:03:00
  发帖心情 Post By:2009/6/20 22:51:00

请提供译文或者简介吧。

进入历法知识讨论版块的朋友,估计英文水平有楼主这么高的还是占少数。

所以楼主若要表达自己的观点,最好在提供英文的同时,也提供一下中文。

照顾一下大多数朋友。

 

不要因为自己的英文水平很高,就以为其他朋友也有同样水平(至少我的英文水平很差。我很惭愧看不懂楼主的英文文献)。

 

还有,请最好发表自己的高见,不要老是直接照抄人家的论文。

照抄别人的英文,其实无法解决你的问题。


支持(0中立(0反对(0单帖管理 | 引用 | 回复 回到顶部
总数 39 上一页 1 2 3 4 下一页

返回版面帖子列表

从预测日食的沙罗周期看农历的置闰问题








签名